It is what it is. The general consensus of people around the world except Turkey is that the slaughter of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire during the First World War was genocide, by very definition. Giving it any other name is simply an attempt to whitewash history and deny the truth and the extent of what really happened. The Germans and the German government have come to terms with the Holocaust- why can't the Turks and their government finally do the same with regard to the Armenian Genocide? The entire world agrees that what took place was a genocide, and by constantly denying this fact the Turkish government does nothing but lose credibility with the rest of the world and try to fool itself.
But then ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Qwl - I have no axe to grind, little knowledge of this subject and no ideological slant either way.
However your arguments have not convinced me of your position in the least. It is important for any people to admit past misconduct and honestly examine their own history to ensure that we as a species only improve. Your eds are rather crude propaganda with the transparent intention of advancing a political agenda by introducing other information which is irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
Were Muslims in the regions killed by Armenians in a tit-for-tat cycle of violence starting in the mid 19th century and culminating in the genocide of the Armenian population by the Turkish government in ? No idea - but I respect your right to make this case and use Wiki to present logical, balanced, well written and well referenced information in a page on that topic. Any person of good intentions should support your right to do this. But this is a separate issue and should be in a separate page. At best, it may be fair to mention that the events took place in the context of cyclic communal violence and insert a link to a separate Wiki on Armenian attacks on muslims.
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You are going to have to work hard though, as the whole point of genocide is that it is a state sponsored or organised activity, not a riot in which a lot of people got killed. Renaming strategic bits of the Armenian Genocide page to try to present the mass murder of civilians as anything other than what it was is ridiculous. Frankly, I can think of nothing more truly disrespectful to the Turkish people than dishonest refusal to examine past behaviour as honestly and objectively as possible.
Qwl, with respect, you are not even trying. A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.
Recently, members of the U. Should this be included as well? The letter from the "International Association of Genocide Scholars", cited as a reference here for the point that the Armenian genocide was the first, actually does not explicitly claim this. The world does not revolve around the UN, there is countless references stating that the Armenian Genocide is the first genocide of the twentieth century, and reliable ones.
Just because the UN states it has acknowledged the Herero in German South West Africa in as the first genocide of the 20th century does not mean it gets removed. Also when it says 'widely' I think we understand that many references state that the Armenian Genocide is considered to be the first genocide of the twentieth century.
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Im reverting the newly added part on "Turkish authorities gave up fighting against 25 countries during World War I,etc" as a possible vandalism. Andranikpasha talk , 17 January UTC I also made some technical corrections and added a photo from WikiCommons for the lead which hadnt any.
Andranikpasha talk , 17 January UTC. Almost all stated sources are biased. The names of all the authors ends with -ian, which makes them armenian. Kurdish sociologist not historian Taner Akcam should also be ignored in a encyclopedia-article, because his anti-turkish mentality is documented.
The whole article is biased, for example it says that jews were persecuted in the Ottoman Empire, in fact it has always been safer to be a jew in the ottoman empire than in europe. Independat of whether these events are a genocide or not, the article is clearly anti-turkish.
I know that you will call me a holocaust-denier, fascist, murder, terrorist etc, but as a person of turkish descent its my right to call atention to things, which in my genocidal and bloodthirsty turkish mind are biased to my proud countries disadvantage. I know the armenian diaspora will smash my request, but i want to say that being reasonable and good-minded will always lead you to victory - thats why the turkish state rises from Ararat to Trace, from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.source
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With obstinacy, you wont get anywhere, as history proves. But lets go. I dont think that Tamer Akcam is a neutral source, not because of his kurdish descent, but because he was a leading member of the anti-turkish and marxist-leninist group called "Devrimci Yol" revolutionary path. Many people consider Dev-Yol as a terrorist organization, but i think that this is not enough for you.
A: I first met him in Ankara. From - we worked together ' organizing our groups, we had the same ideas. We symphatized with the THKP - C' , he said that the ideas of Mahar Cayan are very easy to realize in our homeland Kurdistan , lets leave the big cities and go to there. We can also form our armed struggle there. Another very important point is that he said that he symphatizes with THKP - C, a marxist terrorist group, which also tried to split up turkey.
He also says that Kurdistan is his homeland, which makes him pretty kurdish in my biased turkish opinion, i dont know how you will reintepret this. So according to this interview your so called neutral source is a good friend of a terrorist-leader, symphatizes with terrorist organisations and has ideas of splitting turkey. This makes him pretty anti-turkish i think. This agains sound very anti-turkish and biased to me. In the same Interview he says that he was jailed 5 times in Turkey motiveless, regardless of whether the turkish state did right or wrong by doing so, i doubt that anyone can be neutral to a states which jailed him 5 times, according to him motiveless.
He is biased.
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You will probably say that the interview, done by one of the most reliable journalists of turkey some decades ago is "fake and paid propaganda" like everything else from turkey. In this case, i will post you some other sources sources. Now i wasted some minutes of my live by trying to convince you that Mr Akcam is anti-turkish and biased, although i know that you will never change anything at all. I think that the Wikipedia Armenian Genocide article is something holy for the armenians, something they will never want to lose - just like the mount ararat.
I never judged about whether these events should be considered as a genocide or not, but if we want to follow the wikipedia guidelines, text passages quoting taner akcam should be removed. By the way, you say that "Jews are irrelevant to this discussion and this article". If this is true, why does the Article refer to the situation of Jews in the Ottoman Empire at least 5 times? We all know that jews in the ottoman empire had always lived better lives with far more rights than anywhere else in this world, especially europe.
But this article still says that they were persecuted. I criticized this point, and took it as an example of how anti-turkish this article - especially the party created with akcams quotes, is. I would suggest you reacquaint yourself with some of Wikipedia's policies before making such defamatory remarks. I would then recommend that you reacquaint yourself with the topic instead of jumping to the conclusion that because the authors are biased, their credibility is somehow discredited.
If you think this article is biased because there are many Armenian authors on it, then you should nullify the Holocaust article using the same logic since there are many Jewish historians who state that 6 million Jews died during WWII. Now to Taner Akcam. He is the most quoted Person in this Article, the whole story told by the armenian-american community is based on his works. In fact, he is totally anti-turkish. Its a fact that Taner Akcam was a leading member of Dev-Yol, a marxist group sponsored by sowjets which had the goal of splitting the capitalist republic of Turkey.
This would make him pretty anti-turkish. Do you deny the fact that he was a member or do you deny the fact that this group was an enemy of the turkish state? Please be concrete and precise with your answers. Sorry Charlie murat - but character assasination is just another tactic of genocide deniers like you and is not sufficient for consideration in an article such as this. Likewise your attempt to discredit the very valid comparision between this article and the Holocaust article is also just an ad homonim like cheap shot and nothing more.
The comparison made concerning Armenian scholars and the Armenian Genocide and Jewish scholars and the Holocaust is completely valid Until we see the likes of David Irving - a far more respected scholar known for relevant research of the particular period of history and of the subject matter itself regarding WWII and the Holocaust - much more so then any you claim to be recognized experts on this particular period of history and regarding the subject of the Armenian Genocide - until a David Irving is included as representing a legitimate perspective on the Holocaust - there is no place for inclusion of the extreme biased and beholden supposed experts on the Armenian Genocide not that you put forth for the Armenian Genocide article - at least not other then mentioning them as deniers and mentioning of any relevant history - such as "the Lewis Affair" or such.
Again they represent an extreme minority view that is genreally not only inconsitant with the prevelant scholarly understanding of this issue but is in extreme opposition to it You try to avoid the question i asked. I never wanted you to add scholars like Halacoglu, Lewis or Stone. For you this article is as holy as mount ararat, for me its just leisure-activity. But you go off-topic by accusing me of being a systematic genocide-denier and by saying that my request is one tactic of a bigger plan.
This is off-topic, not my request. Stop analysing my mind, instead answer my question. I never said that i deny a genocide.
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BUT: I gave you reliable sources, which prooves that Taner Akcam, person most quoted in this artice,. Regarding all those fact, i'am pretty sure that Taner Akcam, who his of kurdish descent, is not a reliable source at events regarding turkey, because this all prooves his anti-turkish stance. But you do not accept that he is anti-turkish and prejudiced against turkey.
So i asked you: Do you deny the fact that he was member of a terrororganisation, or do you think that being part of a organization which tries to split a country does not mean that a leading member of it has to be enemy of the state, and its not necessarily a proof for an anti-state mentality - thats my question , i do not deny any genocide that occured, i condemn the killings occured in the ottoman empire.
But describing bad things even worse than they actually were is not acceptable for me.
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Someone who murdered 20 persons should not be convicted for murdering and torturing 30 people, this is just wrong. I dont like Holocaust-Comparisons, but lets imagine this scenario: An anti-german former member of the RAF leaves germany for america, there he writes books in which he says that not 6 million jews were murdered, but 20 million were murdered and tortured even harder than it actually happened. Will this person ever be considered as an reliable source in wikipedia?
By the way, as i forecasted you accuse me of being a holocaust denier. As a german citizen, i feel responsibility for the holocaust, and for me questioning the uniqeness of the holocaust is an insult. I know that you, as armenians , have another point of view and another mentality regarding this subject, so i dont want to discuss about. Just dont go off-topic and answer the question.
Jeez, just buzz off already. Don't you realize that nobody here takes you seriously with your facetious comments about not being a "genocide denier"? This definitely isn't a genuine attempt to improve the article but just another rant. This isn't a forum for you to lecture us, much less a place to make defamtory and false statements about other people.
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